Debt Collection Decisions for 2026: Executive Insights from Industry Leaders

Adam Parks (00:00)
Hello everybody, Adam Parks here with another Receivables LinkedIn Live webinar.

Today is my personal favorite broadcast of the year not just because I have some of my personal favorite people here to talk with me today but because we get to talk about facts, figures, statistics, and numbers that actually support what we think is happening around the industry. It's one thing for us to have the conversations amongst different organizations and to try and put together where we think the industry is heading, it's another to actually conduct a survey where hundreds of people respond be able to analyze all of that information and to draft a report which has been one of the greatest honors of my career has been working on this project so I'm very excited today for us to be able to analyze this and to have such great people here to talk with me. I've got Manny Plasencia joining us Mark Naiman and Aristotle Sangalang each one is coming with their own perspective of the debt collection industry. And I think that's kind of the important piece here. Starting with Aristotle, he has personally participated in over 600 debt buying transactions over the last 25 years. Mark Naiman has served as the president of RMAI, founded both debt buyers and collection agencies. And Manny, to me, is the pinnacle of global debt collection, having managed that for variety of creditors throughout his career and now working with TransUnion, not only to help us produce this report and to be able to talk about this in such a public setting, but also feeding us with so much data, information and experience to drive these discussions forward. So gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. I could not thank you enough for your participation. Now, for those of you that are watching us live, here today on LinkedIn. We're going to be talking about a report today and there's going to be a lot of facts, figures, data, and statistics that we're going to cover. As we're going through that information, I'm dropping in the chat right now the link to the report if you have not read it yet so that you can follow along or go read this after the fact and see how much more information there is. This year's report is almost double the length of last year's report for two reasons. One, we asked more and better questions this year, which allowed us to further dissect the information that we receive. And two, because we had artificial intelligence tools available to us to help us more deeply analyze the results of the survey and try to draw conclusions on what we were seeing. Now the report itself does not draw the conclusions. The report is there to report the facts of what we learned from the survey. These discussions is where we get to really dig in and talk about what we believe the impacts are or our predictions for the future as it relates to all of these different pieces. But as you go through the report, you're gonna find that we broke things down a little bit differently this year. So if we're gonna talk about AI, let's talk about use cases. If we're gonna talk about BPO, let's look at how it's actively being used, but not just on the whole, broken down by the company types because I think debt buyers and collection agencies and law firms and the creditors all look at the technology in different things a little bit differently as well as looking and dissecting things based on the size of the different organizations that participated because a company of 10,000 people and a company of five people are probably going to look at some of these things differently as well. So gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. I really do appreciate coming and sharing your insights.

Mark Naiman (03:45)
My pleasure, Adam. This is always fun.

Aristotle Sangalang (03:46)
Thanks for having me.

Manny Plasencia (03:48)
Happy to be here. Thank you.

Adam Parks (03:50)
So first things first guys, the first thing that we identified, or the first thing that we dissected as we looked at the survey results wasn't necessarily directly from the survey, but from all of the great information that TransUnion is able to provide for us as it relates to the consumers themselves. So I thought I would kind of open this up with an open-ended question talking a little about what are you seeing or. How do you think the consumer's situation or consumer stress has changed over the last year or two?

Manny Plasencia (04:23)
Yeah, I guess I'll jump in. Yeah, I spend a lot of time geeking out on this information. I remember as an operator in collections, it was a lot harder to come by this information. So I'm really glad to be working at TransUnion where I have, I mean, I don't want to say instant access to this information. I get to work with the teams that actually develop it and see it from its infancy and how it gets created. I want to applaud that team as well as yours.

You know, first off, this report, the debt collections industry report is near and dear to my heart personally. I kind of pay homage and tribute to a great friend of ours that's no longer with us. Eric Foulk was a friend to everybody in this industry, and I know this was an important feature for him, and we've kind of taken that mantle and we're pressing forward with it. I love the idea of being that single source of truth in the industry and providing an actionable guide as to where the industry is going. You know what I would want more than anything or encourage folks more than anything out of this report, when I'm asked, you know, what do you want to see mostly done with this report is I want people to use it, use it in their decision making, use it in their strategies, use it in determining what the landscape of the industry looks like for them, because the industry is fractured in so many different verticals and directions and disciplines. And I'm really proud of the way of many of the findings that we're going to discuss and the stewards that the industry has been of the consumer of credit and all of that in the way that that's all intertwining. But furthermore, I wanted to applaud you and your team, Adam. Our partnership is great. It's immense. I love having that non-bias lens and view and you guys do an amazing job. I know this year we worked hard to expand on the report, create more information. We wanted to expand and drill down and get more detailed in our questions and I really applaud the way that you've done that. I know some of our partners might have been reluctant to share their secret sauce, let's say, but I think your involvement in that neutrality has really opened up that line of communication. We have a real insight into strategies and decisions that people are making, why they're making it, their satisfaction levels with what they're doing. And coupling that with consumer data is only empowering our industry. So I thank you for your partnership and I really applaud all of our efforts as well as you gentlemen.

I know we've all been involved in this report even prior to me working at TU, some way, or form. And I just really thank you for the support that you're all giving us here. As far as the consumer, I think what jumped out the most is kind of like the combination of things, right? We've been talking about it for a while, Adam and Mark and Aristotle. We've been talking about the consumer behaviors are just, they're counterintuitive for guys. Maybe it's my generation. I don't know what it is, but things like total balances, right? Total balances increased by 33.1%.

From 2019, okay, I'm talking about the quirky year, but from 2019 to 2025, we saw balances increased 33.1%. But at the same time, nearly 35 % of consumers plan to apply for new credit or refinance existing credit over the next 12 months. Those two oxymoronic behaviors kind of tug at each other, right? One indicates, okay, more debt, but yet 35 % of consumers are applying, that's big number, applying or refinancing obligations, right? So those kind of behaviors and the consumers behaviors, when we look at them, those types of behaviors have been, I don't want to call them confusing because we can figure them out. But at the same token, they haven't been the normal pattern of behaviors that we see. Normally balances increase. We see the origination optimism decrease, right? All of that. So yeah, I'll get off my soapbox here for a minute and let others speak. I'm really intrigued by the nuances that we're seeing in those types of behaviors.

Mark Naiman (08:01)
Manny covered a lot of ground there. It's tough to follow Manny as usual here. Answering your question very specifically, Adam, you kind of asked, you know, what's driving a lot of this? I'll tell you, and this is from talking to everyone, I think that there's so many factors now today that are impacting this inability, whether you want to call it the lack of flexible options for consumers, and that's result of a lot of things, whether it's

Aristotle Sangalang (08:04)
You

Adam Parks (08:06)
Yeah

Mark Naiman (08:26)
the uncertainty around student loans, the uncertainty about collections, the uncertainty about ongoing litigation, the uncertainty about the federal presence of the CFPB being significantly diminished. I think that there's a lot of uncertainty. As a result of that, I think you're seeing, as Manny said, I don't think we've reached that event horizon where you have banks cutting off credit. We had mentioned and we had spoken a lot about are these balances being diluted by incoming originations? And I think as we get into the discussion more today, I know we're gonna touch on this in a lot of different ways, but you asked the question, what is it that's driving this? I'm gonna say it's consumer uncertainty.

Aristotle Sangalang (09:06)
I have to agree with Mark. It's the consumer uncertainty on many levels. It's uncertainty with interest rates, AI, technology, all those things. And it's happening fast. So that's what's causing a lot of, I think, the chaos that we're seeing.

Adam Parks (09:06)
That's interesting, the consumer insert. Go ahead, Aristotle.

Manny Plasencia (09:24)
you know, I think overall, societal behavior has changed a lot and the thing, the prioritization for consumers isn't the same as it used to be. A stupid, stupid statistic that probably isn't in our report, it has nothing to do with this, but there's been a 23% decrease in alcohol sales year over year. And that's been a steady statistic for Gen Z, specifically over the last four years. They don't drink, they're not like the rest of us. They just don't drink.

Impact over the last four years is an 84% or 83% decrease in alcohol sales. You look at that, that's quite impactful for that industry, right? And that's a consumer behavior that's now changed and what they prioritize and the way that they seek satisfaction, the way that they spend their money all relates to the same as kind of changed. And I think we're gonna kind of see that change over time. I know I always get on these grand things and I could answer that previous question Mark and I will. I will and that's been a previous. I did, all right.

Mark Naiman (10:18)
You did, you did answer.

Adam Parks (10:21)
Well, let me throw a couple of stats out there to support the overall stress that the consumer is facing. We've seen a, was it the average LTV of a new used car loan is at 127%. The highest that I've ever heard of in my lifetime. Maybe my data doesn't go back that far, but 127%.

Manny Plasencia (10:32)
Yep. Insane.

Adam Parks (10:45)
LTV on a used vehicle sounds like a terrible idea, especially when you know that a lot of these loans are going 7-8 years, right? Like that, I think demonstrates the level of stress that a consumer is under. We also saw when it came to student loans, when we looked at those calculations, how delinquency of a federal student loan was impacting the delinquency rates of other products overall, which is not in our current report, Manny, but it's something that you and I talked about on stage a lot last year. I know it's going. Yeah.

Manny Plasencia (11:10)
59 points average, I can attest that. 59 point average drop in credit score for missing your federal student loan payment. That's the average right now going on right now amongst that population. That's crazy.

Adam Parks (11:23)
And then one of my favorite statistics to look at year over year is the aggregated excess payment and seeing how rate which which is ultimately talking about how much money the consumer can afford to pay above their minimum payments due and to see that continue to fall I think demonstrates the level of stress that the consumer is under. But I want to go back to student loans for one more second here because this is a risk level that we started talking about at the end of last year that I think is being overlooked by a lot of the

Aristotle Sangalang (11:28)
Thank

Adam Parks (11:52)
debt collection industry and that's the ability for the government to garnish with minimal effort. And if they start garnishing 15% of wages, what kind of impact will that have on delinquency and charge off for other consumer credit products? And what's that look like for that consumer? Because it's not just their disposable income that's starting to disappear at that point. It's their ability to potentially pay the outstanding loans that they have.

Manny Plasencia (12:19)
That's why this group gets along so well. Because we often come up with the same type of hypothesis, right? Or we hypothesize the weirdest things. And I think we talked about this, Adam, I don't know, quite a few months ago, we talked about what impact are student loans gonna have downstream. So I took a look and I can attest to 93% of the delinquent population of student loans today. That's again, that number is 93%. are not paying AEP or aggregate excess payment. It kinda, and that's kinda countering my hypothesis of we've bred this behavior, right? We've been telling 20 year olds for the last five years, you guys have heard this speech from me. We've been telling 20 year olds for the last five years, they don't have to pay their student loans. And now all of a sudden we want them to pay it. We wanna change that behavior when they've been told they don't have to.

Even parents are holding out to figure out if I have to regarding all the ambiguity that was created around student loan repayment behavior, right? So I was blaming that. But then when I see a statistic that says 93% of the delinquent population or even the delinquent eligible population isn't making an aggregated excess payment, I'm talking about payment stress further supporting your point that a 15% garnishment. So what the federal government has is they have administrative wage garnishment powers, no lawsuit no court order, they can just send a writ to your employer and start garnishing your wages. Their limitations are that they can only garnish up to 15% of the wage instead of the statutory 25 or whatever the allowance is in the state. They can only take 15% and they have to leave you 248 bucks, I think, in your disposable weekly income thereafter. If they meet those two requirements, they can garnish your wages or they have the tax programs, where they can take your taxes or even garnish social security income. So while those programs have been paused today, when those become unpaused, along with the pent up volume to Adam's point, that 15% pressure, and it might be forced pressure through non-court ordered wage garnishment, is gonna have impact on delinquency, or we believe may have impacts on delinquency volumes downstream. What that looks like really depends on how long we keep holding out with this pause, if you ask me.

Adam Parks (14:33)
So as we start talking about kind of where that consumer is last year, we started looking at a rise in balances. We looked at there was starting to be a rise in delinquency in charge off at the beginning of 2025. That seems to have dipped off. But the only conclusion that I can draw from the data that I'm looking at is that the consumers are borrowing more money because they have the available credit credit scores improved between 2020 and 2022. And I think the consumers are starting to level that available credit to borrow more, which would account for those rising balances, but at some point that bubble burst. And I was reading something, it's not in this report, but I was reading recently that the adjustable rate mortgages that are in the United States right now have exceeded the volume that we had in 2007. So what happens if interest rates start to rise again?

Aristotle Sangalang (15:27)
Minimum payments go up, everything goes up.

Mark Naiman (15:27)
I don't see the trigger. I don't see that. Yeah, I don't see the trigger being mortgage this time, Adam. I kind of see where you're going with this one. I think that you're going to have a combination of other factors. The stresses I go back to the.

Adam Parks (15:35)
Maybe not, I'm just thinking about the stress.

Mark Naiman (15:41)
I think the industry and Manny touched on this and we're talking about these kind of societal shifts that take place and those large call centers that had 100 full-time employees that were not open on Saturday and Sunday and certainly not able to take a payment at three o'clock in the morning have redefined what it means to be an agency in this space. We're not an expanding industry. We don't have 10,000 more agencies than we had 10 years ago. We have 10,000 less and as with all numbers, if you look back and you had, and I think a lot of people did, moving into Corona, right, 2019. beginning of 2020, everybody was forecasting that it would be the lowest, know, like, everyone was kind of like, hardship planning and like, what are we going to do? And all of a sudden, 18 months later, and a lot of companies, most if not all had record breaking collection months. And it was a result of a lot of things, mainly money being sent to consumers to kind of enrich the economy that went back to paying bills. Are we on the are we kind of on a precipice of another one of those events? If you watch the news, you certainly would would seem to think that tariffs are going to suddenly land a couple of thousand dollars in the consumer's pocket. Does that go straight to paying the increased amount of debts that we're seeing here? You know, I see kind of a consolidation towards the top. The larger companies that are working more accounts are having liquidity increases versus some of the smaller companies, I think, and I know we're to touch on this later, some of the smaller companies that aren't able to leverage some of the technological benefits of portals or being able to take payments at two o'clock in the morning on Sunday are the ones that are seeing liquidity decrease because again it goes right to the fact that we're dealing with a change in that kind of societal behavior. More people want to want to interact via text less people want to pick up the phone but you'll never hear me tell you the phone needs to go away.

Aristotle Sangalang (17:21)
you

Manny Plasencia (17:28)
boy.

Aristotle Sangalang (17:28)
Right, I think you'll see more people

Adam Parks (17:29)
Well, hold on, the- the- Go.

Aristotle Sangalang (17:30)
wanting to their collections.

Mark Naiman (17:33)
you.

Aristotle Sangalang (17:33)
dealt with their customer service. I was looking at our portfolios and in next couple of years, half of those charge house people are gonna be born after 1990, which means that the conventional methods of communication are less effective. They're not gone, they're just less effective.

Manny Plasencia (17:58)
I'll air everyone to caution that I think that line has become a lot more blurry because if you look at portal payments behavior today, digital payment behavior is primarily driven by Gen X. So 1965 to 1980 generation. They're the ones who predominantly are the

Manny Plasencia (18:20)
pay the digital payers who that result in payment, whatever work stream or workflow they follow through with their SMS phone, whatever, when you receive a digital payment, that's more likely to be from a Gen X or than any other generational got generational group. So just, you know, I think that that used to be a lot more prevalent where different, you know, I want to say the different generational groups utilize digital communication to as differently. And I think while that still exists today, I think that's kind of getting blurrier than it used to be. Like I think more than 98%, yeah, the report shows that more than 98% of organizations now offer at least one self-service capacity compared to like 87% in 2024. That's another thing I love about the report this year is we, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of snapshots, right? Cause we all want snapshots, but in the report, because we've been doing this for seven years now, prior to my arrival, we have...

Mark Naiman (18:52)
care point.

Manny Plasencia (19:15)
that we can look at and say, wow, look at this, identify those peaks like this one. I think that's a unique data point. shows where the industry is either heading or trying to head, right? And I'll do a bit of a teaser. I know we're going here later, but as we see the industry applying or trying to apply large language models, chat, bots, artificial intelligence learning and leaning more towards automation and getting away from manual, whether they're using AI to do it or automating. You know, I see, or at least I hear, I don't wanna say I see, I hear a lot of this as I interact and obviously I have big teams here to you that are in Iraq with folks. And I hear a lot of folks almost trying to implement the tool and not necessarily the solution to the strategy, right? And I hear a lot of people just saying AI because they, right, right. They wanna...

Adam Parks (20:03)
They're worried about the rails and not how to optimize it.

Manny Plasencia (20:08)
Right, right. I'll be honest. It's my Consumer Advisory Board, so it's not like it's public and I'm trying to advertise. I don't mind sharing. We have a brilliant speaker, Dr. Ward, James Ward, who's coming to speak at my cab. I think you saw him at RMAI. He's a great guy. He's an intelligent guy. He knows a lot. I dealt with him when I was at eBay way back when. There it is.

Mark Naiman (20:28)
His book's over here. Yeah, great book.

Manny Plasencia (20:30)
Yeah, yeah, but you know, I love how he

Mark Naiman (20:30)
Yeah.

Manny Plasencia (20:32)
talks about AI governance, right? And looking at the risk and reward ratio and trying to get that right. Because there's inherent risks. But just trying to deploy AI because you want to tell your clients that you're using AI or talking about your automation and calling it AI. And then you get somebody like me, Adam or Mark or even Aristotle on the phone. we talked to more like, yeah, that's not, know, where's the intelligence part? Where's the learning part? Where's the where's the rag mod? What are you doing? You know, where's the AI part? And I think the industry is real eager to really deploy into this tool. And we see a future of agentless collections and all of that. Not that we're anywhere near there, but we see all of that. But long story short, I love how the report is able to use that trend and information to compete and to expand the graph. And AI.

Adam Parks (21:13)
So to kind of pile onto that Manny, when we start talking about why are organizations trying to deploy this technology, it's because we're dealing with an increase of accounts and not necessarily a liquidity increase at the same rate. So these two things are not always running together. So a couple of stats from the report here, 64% of firms,

Manny Plasencia (21:28)
Exactly. That's the base issue.

Adam Parks (21:36)
reported an increase in their account volumes in the last 12 months, but then 75% expect that volume to continue increasing over the next 12 months, which I also think is really interesting. We did just have a question come through from Mr. Mark Cavins, so I'm gonna ask this one of the group just to kind of stir the pot here a little bit. The current state of the credit card charge-offs and delinquency shows a mixed picture. While there has been a slight decrease in charge-offs, they remain historically high compared to the last decade. Delinquencies have also have a tighter pattern indicating potential stabilization period. However, the average credit card balance continues to increase, reflecting ongoing financial stress. Is this a mixed bag? Yeah, I agree that it is a mixed bag situation right now, and it's hard for us to predict what is going to be the next move. But when the consumers are borrowing more and their repayment capabilities per the aggregated excess payment are decreasing.

That to me sounds like the balloon is inflating. Is there something that's gonna happen between now and the bubble bursting that could potentially deflate the balloon? That's always a potential, but I don't know what that event would be.

Manny Plasencia (22:52)
I call it the, I'm gonna pay whenever the heck I want generation. I don't get it. First off, great observation. That is a great observation. that Adam and I have, every month I'm waiting for that conversation when Mark and I come get on the phone and say, you know what? It popped. Delinquency. mean, charge-offs just went through the roof, but we've been seeing, you're right, steady, I'm gonna say decrease, but a stabilization and charge-off behavior. While the balance bloat has continued and is significant,

Adam Parks (23:06)
you

Manny Plasencia (23:17)
the recent charge-off behavior hasn't coupled the usual and customary behavior with balances. Higher balances usually indicate higher charge-offs. You see that in some markets like auto, right? Repos are through the roof, consumer behavior is different. To answer the question that in the earlier segment we were talking about, creditors, if you look at originations,

Manny Plasencia (23:41)
and I'm just gonna use this as an example to explain the behavior, aren't taking 100 people and giving them $6,000 credit lines anymore, they're taking 1,000 people and giving them $3,000 credit lines. They're spreading the wealth for various reasons, albeit the 10% cap interest rate and the people have been talking about cap interest rates since Chopra and CFPB, whether it be this consumer behavior that we're all trying to determine and forecast and behave. You take all that plethora of reasons and they're coming up with spreading the...

spreading the wealth a little bit differently, which makes sense for the credit industry, specifically in the card market, right? ⁓

Mark Naiman (24:14)
especially risk mitigation is key there. And I think that the lessons of the past are why we are where we are now.

Manny Plasencia (24:20)
Exactly. Exactly. But that behavior doesn't explain, and this is what I'm getting at, if we're seeing the stabilization and charge-offs, we're seeing this carrying of heavier balances, we're probably seeing consumers jump higher into the 60-day and even 90-day range, right? We're probably seeing similar behavior in the tiers, right? You look at subprime, prime, you were probably seeing more traffic between those tiers based on those types of payment behaviors and how willing people are, coupled to the fact of how willing or how much tolerance lenders have for credit score. You couple all of that behavior together and it's just interesting how we're carrying these balances and not seeing that they're popping how they should be. Yet, at the same token, the industry is reporting, while we're seeing less charge-offs, the industry is reporting higher volumes across the industry. Everybody's saying they got more volumes. Where's it coming from?

Adam Parks (25:07)
higher volumes, but let's talk about the liquidity of those volumes as well, because we've talked about seeing this increase and now we're expecting a bigger increase. And we didn't ask, we changed the question this year. We used to ask, what was your liquidation on these products? And now we've changed it to just try to directionally understand is liquidation increasing or decreasing. 39% reported improved liquidity while 28% experienced declining liquidity.

Manny Plasencia (25:10)
Yeah, that's the other thing, yeah.

Adam Parks (25:33)
One thing that I want to point out here that I saw in the math was that the larger it tended to be larger organizations that reported that increase as compared to smaller organizations under 10, for example, under 10 FTE, for example, that were reporting that they were seeing a decline in liquidity. But that also leaves about 50 % of the market who's like, it's not going up or down. It's remaining the same, but I'm getting an increased volume that I have to work, which means like, Mark, how do you handle that from a unit yield perspective in terms of being able to actually

Manny Plasencia (25:39)
I was gonna ask.

Adam Parks (26:06)
manage the operations of an organization.

Mark Naiman (26:09)
the best you can, right? Utilizing, no, I mean, look, I mean, the example I gave before, which was everyone expected numbers to drop off a cliff pre-corona and it went against those expectations. I think that you can model out the opportunities, but I think for the first time in a very long time, the number of opportunities is exceeding the appetite in the space. We've been 10 years where there's been a bit of a

Adam Parks (26:10)
Technology.

Mark Naiman (26:34)
I think that as you begin to understand that in that same time frame, we've had the advent of let's call them kind of almost new asset classes, ⁓ with the rise of fintech with the rise of buy now pay later with the rise of all of these call it alternate, non brick and mortar banking lending options. People are having to kind of readjust and again, they're readjusting based upon the data that we have. And I think one of the things we had spoken about last year is in many ways the the

Mark Naiman (27:05)
I think we called it a heart murmur, you know, that like 2020 to 2022 just had this bizarre jump. And when you looked at a large graph, I think we're kind of on the precipice of where the number of defaulted accounts, we haven't had one of these, you know, kind of triggering events. And like I said, I don't think it's going to be mortgage, even though you're seeing a record number of adjustable rate mortgages, I do think you're going to have as we step into the future, I think that as you start seeing some of the default push into the prime and super prime categories, and I think we actually touch on that a little bit later. To me, it's it's about creating the best numbers you can based upon the data that you've created, leveraging the information from this report allows you to forecast.

I don't know that there's a direct one to one forecast that allows you to create that unit yield, but it certainly allows you to kind of understand where we're coming from. with the added stress of uncertainty of the future, I think that there's going to be more opportunities in the next 12 months than there has been in the last 10 years. That's a personal statement.

Manny Plasencia (28:12)
So what's the liquidation solution though?

Adam Parks (28:12)
All we can do is try and analyze the data that's in front of us, right? And so I think, Manny, if I remember correctly, we saw in 2025, the consumers slide down the credit scale. like origination is more in super prime than it is in sub prime, but we've seen consumers slide down the scale from super prime to prime and from prime to sub prime over the last year, which I think is yet another indicator of financial stress of the consumer.

Manny Plasencia (28:41)
Yeah, we saw, I remember the leading edge indicator for us was when you and I saw 129 point drop in the super prime category if you missed a student loan payment and that delinquent student loan population. So the super prime was dropping 130, 129, I'm sorry, 129 points. And you and I were like, hey, hold on, what's going on with it? And we wound up going down this whole rabbit hole with Dan and team about how the tiers are changing. And I'm still kind of looking at that evolution. So look, we talked about agencies and liquidation, and we can definitely talk about the impact of inflation or persistent inflation, the consumer optimism or lack of the same economy, all of that. But we also need to look at what our partners are trying to do about it, right? How are our partners trying to meet that liquidation challenge? Are we accepting liquidation or are we trying to outliquidate our competitors on scorecards, are we trying to drive more money? How we're approaching that is outlined a little bit in this report. I looked at the report and I think some of the plans were improved compensation benefits. What was it, Adam? I medium-sized agencies.

Adam Parks (29:50)
That was related to us trying to identify in the last year's report, we heard about how difficult it was to hire, how difficult it was to retain. And of those that are actively trying to retain, what actions are they taking to keep those people in the seats? And we looked at that. I thought it was interesting to see that as it broke down by company type, because the debt buyers versus the agencies versus the law firms all looked at that very, very differently. And it was just one of those ways in which we saw that.

Manny Plasencia (30:03)
There you go.

Adam Parks (30:19)
differentiation. But even going back to that liquidity statement that I made about, we were saying 39% reported the improved, 28% the declining liquidity. So one other way that we broke this down that I thought was interesting.

Approximately 45% of firms with over 100 FTE saw liquidity improvements compared to 30% of firms under 20 FTE seeing the decline. So there was definitely a drawn line between the size of the organizations and their reporting of increased or decreased liquidity of accounts over the last 12 months.

Manny Plasencia (30:57)
Getting my soapbox ready.

Mark Naiman (30:57)
It's it. Look, it's I mentioned this earlier. It's you've got a consolidating industry. You've got the barrier to entry. You know, the companies that have been doing this that have been doing this for 25 years have either increased steadily to allow for, you know, larger entities that can handle operational changes. Things like the implementation of the compliance everyone's had to deal with in the last 10 years. Or you're dealing with smaller agencies that Will there always be a home for them? Perhaps, but when you're talking about a national presence, I think that there's fewer and fewer of these agencies that are able to continue growing. And I hate to say that from a of a broad sweeping way, but I think that that really goes towards a consolidating industry.

Manny Plasencia (31:43)
So, you know, Mark and I agree so much that I love it when we don't. It's usually a great, great opportunity for us when we don't. I think today, smaller agencies, first off, I agree on the statistics, obviously, and it's a real informative statistic. I think today, smaller agencies have more opportunity to compete with larger agencies than they ever had before.

Mark Naiman (31:50)
Yeah.

Manny Plasencia (32:10)
Maybe not, you if you think about the tools available to them at the cost that's available to them to be able to compete for larger contracts, know, larger opportunities. I don't necessarily need, you know, 100 people to work those accounts anymore. When I can use, and I'm going to do the TransUnion plugs and fly the flag, you know, when I could use data insights to determine how much of that portfolio, you know, how to get to that 20% that's going to yield the maximum profitability out of that portfolio for both me and my client.

Mark Naiman (32:26)
Thank

Manny Plasencia (32:37)
I don't need the same amount of investment that I needed before because those tools which were cost prohibitive before have now reduced in price over time and there's a much more competitive environment out there. And I think our smaller, while that behavior persists, I think smaller agencies are also getting absorbed. I'm watching our larger partners get larger while merger and acquisition has become more prominent in our market and they're getting absorbed into the larger agency market. Some agencies owners pray for that, right? I want to my agency and get a big company to buy me out, some are, die hard, I make my impact in the industry or I found my niche and they're gonna stay in it. And to your point, they should all be using these insights rather than trying to use blunt instruments at this point in our industry.

Mark Naiman (33:20)
I don't know that we disagree there, Manny. You're saying right at the end of the day, I completely agree with the fact that there is more opportunity for smaller agencies to get a larger market value. I'm just suggesting that more of them need to get on the, I'm actually doing that. That's right. There's the difference there is that I couldn't agree more. think that with the ability of the, not just the AI tools, but

Manny Plasencia (33:27)
Darn it.

Mark Naiman (33:45)
BPO opportunities or BOT opportunities or these other types of opportunities, yes, but it's still, they need to grab those reins and really ride that so that they can make up that gap because I'm suggesting that the reason the 45% of the over 100 full-time employee companies are seeing liquidity improvements is a direct result of them being able to dedicate staff in embracing some those opportunities that allow them to increase liquidity.

Manny Plasencia (34:17)
I'm gonna shift Adam, I know you're gonna probably steer us in the right direction real quick, but Adam just mentioned earlier about staff retention, right? And keeping staff. And that statistic stood out to me when we were talking about improved compensation and benefit packages being a leading statistic for medium and large organizations. I think 20% for medium, 70% for large ones, right? Because I remember the days when I used to go flood around convergent when I was home and convergent, then I would go. build break rooms with great games and stuff like that and throw apart. Everybody would love that environment. That doesn't work anymore, right? I remember when we, when now we use remote work and I love how the ones who are embracing remote work and I think they're more successful in their attention and hiring and doing so. I think remote work has been prevalent, but I really love seeing the industry's utilization of BPL. want to, I think the collection agency market has been hesitant to. I want to say trust or I don't know what the factor was, I, you even as myself, as I think about being a collection has been previously was more hesitant to use a BPO, whether it be because they related it to offshoring or whatever reason. But as I'm seeing that trust or that growth, I want to say emerge and seeing that I'm happy to see that because that partnership just makes so much sense to me, collections and BPO, right? Especially with the fluidity of clients and how it moves and stuff is just such a great tool. So I'm loving seeing that. I know Adam's going to go off on me for changing topic.

Adam Parks (35:36)
No, look, I'm happy to go down that path with you because for the first time we asked questions about remote work. We'd asked about BPO last year and we asked questions again this year but we went a little bit deeper down the path in terms of use case. But this was the first time where we really started asking questions as it related to the use of remote work, how that ties in. The last year we saw that people are having trouble hiring, they're having trouble retaining, and they can't always increase the compensation. It can't just be a compensation war with the local community in order to attract those values. So we have to look at new geographic locations in which we can find that staff, whether that's remote around the United States, whether that's consolidated through the use of BPO services offshore, but you have to be really careful about your use of BPO services. And I think there's also a balance here when it comes to the use of

Manny Plasencia (36:09)
No, it shouldn't be. That strategy isn't gonna work.

Adam Parks (36:32)
of the BPO themselves. How are we actively using BPO collection agencies are the least likely to use a BPO service law firms are the most likely which was surprising to me and then seeing the same thing when it comes to debt buyers. But then if you look at debt buyers from a remote work standpoint, they're at the top of the list not necessarily the collection agencies that you would think would be investing in the technology and giving themselves that capability. Look, I realize the complications with that but which which leads me to kind of where we

Manny Plasencia (36:42)
Most likely. I know.

Adam Parks (37:03)
were headed was talking about the product changes over time. Every year that this survey has been conducted prior to 2025, medical debt was the number one debt product that was being worked by these debt collection organizations that responded. That's no longer the case.

So this was the first time I mean that I've been reading the report and I feel like I've read them all at this point in which we saw anything like that. So medical debt declining from 55% to 41% over the course of the year and granted that may have something to do with sample size or the sample of people that completed the survey this year. So I won't totally overlook, you know, sample bias there. However, credit cards are now the most common asset that's being collected at 57%. And does that mean that there's been more opportunities for those small agencies to work some of those other consumer products? And maybe that's the opportunity to leverage more of that technology because I think the leveraging of the self-service technology may be more difficult when you're dealing with the uniqueness of medical accounts.

Mark Naiman (38:06)
That's a good question. Knowing what I know about medical, which is pretty much next to nothing. This is my one area that I think not just as an individual, but as somebody that represented the association, it's not the largest piece of the puzzle. And like Adam suggested, bias may factor in here. What I can tell you is that from personal experience, we're starting to see that

Adam Parks (38:12)
you

Mark Naiman (38:30)
increase to those other asset classes, right? Whether it's the unsecured consumer installment loans, which are being collected on by 48% of firms that responded to the survey or auto receivables, which are being created, you know, collected by 46% of those firms. I believe that next year when this report comes out, I believe that Again, looking into the crystal ball, I think you're going to see auto receivables being collected on by more firms simply based upon what we're seeing today on the repossessions and defaults in the auto space.

Manny Plasencia (39:01)
To Mark's point, just follow the delinquency. First off, I'm your Huckleberry with medical debt. If you look at receivable cycle management as a whole, you look at initiatives to ensure the US population over the last 5, 10 years as that debt grows and evolves over years, credit scores increased for a higher number of Americans over the last few years, et cetera, et cetera, et All of these behaviors coupled with the connotations that we've put around medical debt, like the ambiguity about credit reporting, the decision from us and our Bureau partners to not report anything under $500. And we've kind of really taken a different approach to medical debt. And a lot of that is being held longer and worked differently. in the first party market than it was previously in the third party market. So much so that we used to call it, you know, medical collections. I literally worked for a collection agency called Medical Claims and Collections, Inc. back in the day. Shout out to Steve Kovacs. I'll tell you, today it's revenue cycle management. It's a whole different slew. And I think there's more in short.

There's better pay your sources and I think there's less medical debt than there was before coupled with the fact that we sold and created a lot of credit card debt over the last 10 years, call it, right? And if you look, to a debt buyer, I think the most collectible or the most sought after paper is usually credit card debt if I'm purchasing debt, unless I specifically want higher balances or whatever, the most volume, most bang for my buck is gonna be in that volume ridden type of credit card debt.

I think to Mark's point, we kind of prime the industry a little bit and the industry has been primed this direction and auto is huge. I'll touch it real quick. You talked about LTVs, same situation. We're paying for the sins of the past, if you would, right? When people were paying 120, 125% MSRP for things like Broncos, right? $60,000 over MSRP. That was ridiculous.

You know me, I'm a storyteller. So just give me one minute and I'll get off of it. When the Bronco came out, my wife fell in love with that truck. I'm a car guy. I got five of them in the garage, two of us drive, right? I go, I want to buy my wife the Bronco. I go look at the Bronco and just out of principle, it's not that I couldn't, but out of principle, I'm not paying $25,000 more than the manufacturer's telling me you're so supposed to sell the car for. That doesn't compute in my head, but so I walked off the lot.

Mark Naiman (41:06)
You

Manny Plasencia (41:30)
didn't do it, but I mean, they were selling like gangbusters, there's Broncos everywhere, right? Today, I could buy that Bronco for about 10,000 under MSRP, which is what I'm accustomed to. Now you look at that and you look at the fact that three, four years has transpired since then, those delinquencies on those 72 months loans are coming up, know, car doesn't smell as fresh anymore, the car payment still, you know, stings a little more and people's situations are changing and we're paying for those sins. I mean, Average car payment at one point, I don't know if it's still there, but at one point was in the eight hundreds, the average car payment. Yes, it was, I think last time you know, I looked at it was 794 or something like that. And now it's, you know, the average LTV on a used car is 127%. I'm shopping for a new car for my kiddo. I want to buy her a car. And I'd rather buy her a new car that I can get for $35,000 and buy her a 2016 with 40,000 or 80,000 miles on it that I'm paying 30,000 for it.

Adam Parks (42:02)
It's continuing to rise.

Manny Plasencia (42:27)
know, there's no, so anyways, the auto market is ridden with repossessions right now. You're seeing repo rates through the roof. And quite frankly, if you talk to anybody who's collecting auto debt right now, they're a driver of that statistic of volume increases, because they're seeing huge increases in volume in those deficiency balances as they get created. And I think we'll continue to see that behavior over the course of the next few years until we purge out that sins of the past, as I call it, that we created during those times in auto. I don't think that goes away as much in bank card. I think where Adam and I have been watching closely and continue to of pucker about and get all nervous about is that student loan debt. I mean, that is the largest debt portfolio in the history of debt portfolios, right? Overall, it's...

Adam Parks (43:11)
It is the largest loan servicing platform in the history of the world. There is no larger amount of accounts. There is no larger volume. We pulled this one, Mark. Yeah, I want to say it was 1.3 trillion the last time that we were looking. It somewhere in that range. I know it's getting there. So one of the...

Manny Plasencia (43:16)
If I Yeah, pardon me while I look for, I'm looking for a statistic here.

Mark Naiman (43:26)
I gotta see some, you know me, I need some data. I'll take your word for it. I'll take it.

Manny Plasencia (43:35)
Yeah, hold on, I got you.

Mark Naiman (43:35)
I mean, it makes sense. It's high balances and things like that. mean, I, yeah.

Adam Parks (43:40)
It's the largest look because we were having this conversation with Dan Parks from Yrefy at the TU Summit last year and kind of digging into that. But the last thing I want to say on product because we're coming down to like the last 10 minutes and I want to make sure that we get a chance to talk about some of the technology pieces and clearly we're going to have to do a second one of these because we're barely scratching the surface of all of the information that was ultimately included here. But for those of you that are watching, I highly suggest that you go into the report and look at the product type section.

Because when you start looking at how the different types of companies are working these different products and how different it is between what the debt buyers are buying, what the collection agencies are actively working and what's being placed with the law firms is pretty different and there's some dramatic shifts in year over year that you'll see there as well because now that I had deep response data across two years, I did start building, as Manny talked about, some of that trending data to better understand how things are trending versus just continuing to snapshot time over time. But I know that in our last 10 minutes here that we really wanted to talk about the technology pieces. And the most interesting thing for me was the change in the adoption of artificial intelligence across our industry. Three years ago, we said, or two years ago, we said that it was, I believe it was 67% of companies said that they were never gonna touch artificial intelligence. Last year was 24% of the companies said they were never gonna touch artificial intelligence. This year it was 7%. 7% of companies said that I don't really need that AI stuff, like that's not really for me.

Manny Plasencia (45:10)
Yeah.

Adam Parks (45:16)
That's a pretty dramatic shift in terms of what's happening and it's visible when you go to a conference All of us were at the RMAI conference a couple weeks ago and how many new artificial intelligence voice vendors did you meet while you were there? I mean, I'm still seeing emails from that. I have never heard of before I think that's what

Mark Naiman (45:34)
Yeah.

Adam Parks (45:38)
People are thinking it's gonna go, but again, the use cases of artificial intelligence are different based on the different types of organizations. The debt buyers are looking at it from a scoring and prioritization standpoint. The collection agencies are all about the communications, both written and voice. Then you've got the law firms that are looking at a totally different perspective, and then you've also got the creditors and how the creditors are actively using it within their collections environment.

Manny Plasencia (45:39)
Yeah.

Adam Parks (46:06)
also looking at that large language model information from an underwriting standpoint. So I think that the use of this technology, and we've talked about self-service and some of these other things, but the next piece that I thought was very interesting, and then I'll open this up for discussion, was that 72% of companies reported that their AI or machine learning investments met or exceeded their expectations. So not only are we adopting it, but we seem to be finding some success in our adoption.

Mark Naiman (46:35)
I think that number's gonna change next year. And keeping in mind that these results cut off, and forgive me if I butcher this, I was gonna say October. Today, yeah, in the last week, you've started to see press, Goldman Sachs most recently stated, made a very broad sweeping statement that basically said, artificial intelligence has led to absolutely zero benefit. I'm very interested to see,

Adam Parks (46:40)
September. October 1, yeah, October 1.

Mark Naiman (47:00)
what sentiment is reported next year, especially in light of the fact that 76% of the firms that were queried in this indicated that they planned on increasing technology spending. Does that change as a result of Goldman Sachs large entity in the space kind of moving away from that utilization? I don't know, but that's definitely something that.

Caught me is, you look, we live in this dynamic industry. There's nothing's the same for long periods of time, other than the fact that we're heavily scrutinized at all levels, both federal and state. That's really all that hasn't changed. But in this particular instance, I'm very interested to see kind of what that public perception, does that shift in the next year? Is there a real value, right?

Adam Parks (47:46)
So, interesting, and the question when we ask about the increase to technology spending was not isolated to artificial intelligence. That was across all technology. And I'll get on my soapbox for a minute here. And I still believe that this, in the next seven years, this is an e-commerce business, more so than it is what it is today.

Mark Naiman (47:59)
Yeah, fair.

Adam Parks (48:06)
I truly believe that that's the wave of the future. think the data that artificial intelligence is great, but if we continue to feed bad data to these AI tools, we're just creating problems at scale. That's an issue that we're not really talking about at this point, but that's going to continue to expand as we continue to feed it bad data. And I remember reading recently, it's like 36% of data decays on an annual basis.

Using the origination data or the phone number at origination and considering that every year 36% decay in the data sets, where does that leave us? Because the investment in technology is like investing in a car. But if we're not, if we're going to put terrible gasoline in it, is the car ever going to run the way that we need it to? And how are we going to feel about those investments based on thinking about, we investing in the tech or are we investing in the gasoline to feed that tech?

Manny Plasencia (49:06)
and your gas is getting worse every time you pump it.

Adam Parks (49:08)
The octane's dropping every time that I go to fill that tank. And unless I'm going to feed it, if I'm going to identify new data. Which is one of the use cases that we identified for artificial intelligence was data sourcing and appending. How are we going to source new data? How are we going to append it to our existing data structure in our systems of record in order to drive that forward? And what kind of an impact do we expect for that to have on our level of satisfaction for our technology investments?

Mark Naiman (49:38)
Look, to me, one of the most fascinating points of this was that 25% of respondents in the survey receive at least 40% of payments through online portals. That to me demonstrates a technological advantage that right seeing more than. 50% of organizations receive that number of payments through these online portals, to me, demonstrates where you've kind of adjusted your models from that cost per payment versus that cost per contact because you've removed the human factor. And in those instances, in that segment of diversion that you're able to put through the portal, Look, Adam, you and I go, the e-commerce line is one you and I have been talking about for four or five years. And honestly, each year that goes by, it's a little bit closer to that reality.

Manny Plasencia (50:28)
Yeah, you're listening, you're talking to the right guy. So you guys know, and if the audience doesn't know, I was global head of collections at eBay. So I came in with my very traditional collections mentality of segmenting based on propensity to pay, reaching out to people by phone, breaking my cohorts into demidessel bin values, start sending out letter. And I learned very quickly that I was being really stupid because I had everybody in one environment and I knew everything about their behaviors in them. And I could actually meet them where they're at versus trying to force and funnel them through some type of workflow or process I created. And once I made that mental shift and I started following the breadcrumbs instead of trying to create the meal and just taking the following the breadcrumbs to wherever they lied, I became very successful in exactly what most of our partners are trying to do, which is driving my audience through digital processes to sort most of their problems out with escalation points for human review to make sure that we were processing the right thing for that customer at that time and or take the opportunity to solidify anything like new information, payment arrangements, account blendings, anything we had to do. So e-commerce has figured it out.

Yeah, you're right. I think that's three. I'll throw myself in that mix of talking about the, I'll quote it. The intersection of e-commerce and collections for quite a few years. And I think the industry is still hesitant to try and meet the customer where they're at. We're still deploying AI tools and we use AI as a broad brush. I'll take chat bot for existence. We deploy this to. I apologize to my partners who are in this space, but I just don't believe that we have the agentless environment yet. We don't have the tools to create the agentless environment at a whole yet. think Omni means congruency in all of those communication channels as you've heard me talk, and we use all of our tools to communicate. We don't just use one. This group here particularly uses voice, text, and email, that's how us three communicate with each other, right? We don't just use one particular tool and one particular tool doesn't necessarily depend on another. And AI creating those communication decisions and how we're trying to figure out preferences. Just figure out the people, man, it's personas. Just figure out the people, you have all of the data, you have all of the, you could get any type of data you want. Now, we used to be a data gluttonous environment industry. Give me all the data, not, you can't do that in AI.

You can't do that when you're giving your decisioning power to a machine. Like I'm going to give it up another shout out. If you're deploying AI and you're a small, midsize or large agency and you're trying to deploy AI, first off, I urge you to figure out why you're doing it. What are you solving? What do you want AI to do for you? And then go hire an expert. Go hire an expert, not just to help you deploy it the most technical. No, I mean, go hire a legal expert to help you navigate that process. Cause that is a hard. thing to do. it's kind of like cooking a meal. The quality of the steak matters, the quality of the oil matters, the pan matters, all of that matters. Data, I'm in a great environment. If I call AI the new frontier, data is the new gold, baby. And I'm glad because TransUnion has some great data. And I sell data. So I'm happy to say this. And I'm glad it's going this way. But the truth of the matter is, whether I sold data or whether I was an operator, I would be very concerned. about not just the integrity of the data that's coming into any models, anything that I'm having my machine decide, right? Cause that's all the information it does. It doesn't have intuition. It doesn't have 30 years of experience like you do, right? You're asking a machine to do what you do in certain cases. And in so I'd ask you to be careful and really consider the quality of the data. And to Adam's point, sanitizing your data is critical because data changes.

Think about what you were doing three years ago and are you doing the same thing you were doing three years ago today? I mean, Adam lives in Brazil for Pete's sakes. Who would have thought Adam was gonna be living in Brazil three years ago? ⁓ No, not me either. Adam didn't even think it, right? And now look at Adam's complete, that's a perfect example, complete shift in behaviors that we didn't even see coming. I'm sorry, I'll stop being the jokes.

Adam Parks (54:25)
Me. No, look, it sends me down the rabbit hole of thinking about the consumer's communication preferences correlate to how the account was originated. So consumers that originated an account online want to be serviced online. They originated it in person, they want to talk to someone on the phone. And I think that that correlation will somewhat continue. It's not a perfect correlation, but I think you can see that trend starting to form.

And the use of these self-service tools, 98% of respondents using at least some sort of self-service tool to allow the consumers to engage directly without having to get on the phone with somebody. And we've had a lot of conversations about it over the last year. We've talked about the shame factor of being on the phone with somebody and discussing an uncomfortable situation like you're outstanding debt and providing these other options. Mark, you always use the example of the, you know, can you take a payment at 2 a.m. on a Sunday because you don't have anybody manning the phones at that point. And I think as we look at artificial intelligence, we've seen some organizations that have baby steps their way in. I think a lot of people see

Manny Plasencia (55:33)
That's awesome.

Adam Parks (55:43)
Voice AI is like the promised land and that's where they're trying to get to. But I think you've seen some organizations take a smart approach with let's call it an AI IVR solution. So those incoming calls are being managed in that way off hours. And then they're starting to learn from that to be able to make outbound calls. I don't know how that's going to evolve over the next year. But I can say for those of you that are watching, if you haven't read the report yet, go look at how we break down the use of the technology. Look at how different types of organizations are breaking down their AI usage. Go through the report. Even if you're not gonna sit there and read the whole thing, you can always use your AI tools and Acrobat to give you a decent summary of it. Or just flip through and look at the pretty pictures, like a little pop-up book, because those charts and graphs tell a really important story as well. And I think you can get a good view of where this industry is going, even by scanning that document and just looking at all of the charts and graphs and the way that we've dissected the information in new and interesting ways. And Manny, can't thank you enough for allowing me to double the size of the report this year so that we could communicate all of the great statistics and information that we found.

Manny Plasencia (56:50)
You kidding me? I was urging you to do it. I was urging you to do it. Quick side note, when Adam and I presented this report to my marketing team, let's just say they were concerned to say the least about the amount of resources they had dedicated to us, which wound up creating more work for Adam, which I greatly appreciate it. Just real quickly to touch on what you just described to everybody, and I think this is a way to exemplify it. We talked about that statistic, the statistics around the difficulties in hiring.

And we talked about the solution, which really seemed less that I try to figure out compensation. I think we're all saying that doesn't seem like that's a real solid solution in the industry. But when you go look at AI use cases, and I won't provide a spoiler, I'll say go look at how many of those AI use cases are designed to empower your agents to be more knowledgeable, more successful at their jobs, which really leads to more retention, right? Because money will come, but being successful at your job, being feeling rewarded, feeling fulfilled.

That comes by success or creating those successes for your agents. And you can do that through AI. And I think there's some use cases that might exemplify that as important as segmentation, behavioral insights, propensity to pay, propensity for contact, how you reach people, all of that's important. But just take a look at those use cases. And when you're using the report, that's important how those sections work together. Okay, difficulties in hiring. Now you could go find a solution right within the report, which AI might be your solution.

Adam Parks (58:12)
So gentlemen, as we push to about five minutes over our time block for this particular conversation, clearly we're gonna, no, it's all of us, and clearly we're gonna have to go back. I did get a message from Aristotle that he is in the Chicagoland area, which is absolutely deluged in snow right now, and they had an internet outage

Manny Plasencia (58:17)
Many. poor guy.

Adam Parks (58:30)
So I look forward to bringing him back into the next discussion because there's a lot of insights that we missed. He really has his finger on the pulse of the operationalization of a lot of this data. So I will start organizing gentlemen my thoughts around our next segment and we can do this again and kind of dig a little deeper into some of these areas because as always I enjoyed this conversation and can't thank you guys enough for participating.

Manny Plasencia (58:38)
Thanks.

Mark Naiman (58:55)
Thank you, Adam. Appreciate it as always.

Manny Plasencia (58:56)
Thank you. Thank you so much for everything. Really appreciate it.

Adam Parks (59:01)
So for those of you that are watching, you have additional questions, you can leave those in the comments on LinkedIn. I'll continue responding to the LinkedIn questions. I put the survey link back in there again so that you can go download that one directly from TransUnion. Read through the report yourself. Feel free to DM me on LinkedIn if you've got questions and we'll be sure to get those included in our next discussion here. I'm sure that will come up over the next month or so as we all start preparing, well as I start preparing to come back to the United States specifically to go to the CRS conference happening in Las Vegas in May.

Mark Naiman (59:35)
nice drop. Nice. Thank you. That good plug. Thank you. Thank you.

Adam Parks (59:39)
I thought that was a good one. thought you might like that one. So thank you everybody for watching. We appreciate all of your time and attention and we'll see you all again soon. Bye.

Manny Plasencia (59:47)
Bye guys.